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Audi 5000: 1984-1988, 100, 200: 1989-1991 (C3) 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*


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Last Post: Mar 17, 2014 11:51 AM Last Post By: Francis at Bent...
beattyr

Posts: 5
Registered: 09/21/05
89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 9, 2005 6:37 PM
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Still having the same issues with this 89 tq.

At startup, oil pressure is 0. If i raise rpms briefly to 3-4k, it will sometimes jump up to normal pressures (a bit on the low side but within specs) otherwise I have to shut it down. I usually can get it within 1 or 2 attempts.

Things I have done so far.

Changed oil and verified correct viscosity (10w40). Mobile 1 oil filter now on the car.

Checked and re-checked orentation of valve in oil pressure relief valve. Its correct.

Verified the 0 psi oil pressure with a mechanical gauge just now.

At this point I'm out of ideas and patience. I'm ready to scrap the car though I cant, its what I need to be my daily driver.

If the problem isnt the relief valve whats left? The oil pump itself? Tearing the whole motor down?

This was a running motor in another car that basically sat for about a year, but I had it running correctly back in feb of this year when I was going to sell that other car. Deal fell through, and I had to swap the motor into this current 89 200.

The motor was fully rebuilt about 15-20k miles and with that rebuilt, rings, mains and rods were replaced. So its not excessive milage on the motor.

Anyone got any ideas? Should I just pull the oil pump and replace that?

Stumped here.

Thanks,

Rob
gmatov

Posts: 83
Registered: 05/29/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 10, 2005 11:18 PM   in response to: beattyr in response to: beattyr
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I can't believe you have started, wound to 3-4 G and shut down X number of times, with no pressure, and still have a functioning engine. They are built tough, but no engine can run for long unlubed.

Verifying with a mechanical guage doesn't mean you have no pressure, possibly that gallery,( where is it?) is plugged, no pressure on the guage.

Seems more likely that you have an electrical conductivity problem, or a bad sending unit. I don't know if the signal goes thru the ECU, but it ,might,(the Ecu does work the engine check system, doesn't it? I am not sure here.)

Does it show on the Engine Check system, or just the guage doesn't register? Does the Low OP light come on?

Cheers,

George
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 1:14 AM   in response to: beattyr in response to: beattyr
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You might want to give us more information. For example, did you change the oil pump when the engine was rebuilt? How many total miles on the engine? How are the valves when you start the engine -- are they quiet or very noisy? Do you get a low oil pressure warning alarm, etc.?

Sometimes, when you sit a high-mileage engine for a long time, it might takes a long time to regain the proper oil pressure. It happened to me with my 89 200Q at around 196,000 with Castrol 20W-50. After startup, the oil pressure started to lose to almost zero. But, when you restart, the pressure seemed to increase for a short while, like 20 to 30 seconds. But, eventually came down to zero. So, finally, I tried much thicker oil like SAE 50. It solved the problem very quickly. Once the oil pressure got back to normal, I switched to 20W-50, and everything became normal. Actually, I experienced this twice, because I had to let the car sit twice for over a month -- once for a heater core replacement, and another for a wastegate diaphragm replacement. So, you might want to try SAE 50 or 60 if it's still warm in your area.
Turbo510

Posts: 471
Registered: 09/12/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 11, 2005 6:19 PM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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To pl510er; is that as in Datsun PL510?
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 12, 2005 1:37 AM   in response to: Turbo510 in response to: Turbo510
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To Turbo510, yes of course. What else. I used to have one of a kind 70' 510 4-dr with Japanese 1800SSS head, Mikuni 45 Solex, L20B with Racer Brown Slalom cam, BRE Swaybars - Front & Rear, BRE spoiler, Japanese SSS instrument cluster adopted for left-hand drive, 78' 200SX 5-spd, 78' 200SX electronic ignition and distributor, 240Z water pump, 240Z HD clutch, and many more, but from outside, it looked very generic 510 execpt BRE spoiler. I did all the work by myself and owned it from 1980 to 1992. I wanted to keep it for ever, but my wife sold it when I went back to Japan in 1992 for 5-1/2 years. We came back in 1997, but by then, stock 510s are all but dissapeared. So, I had to drive something different, like Audis and Alfa Milano.

To get back to the 510 story, or Bluebird (or Bull for short) as it was called in Japan, our family purchased a brand new 1968 4-dr 1600 SSS Sedan when I was still in Japan. Occasionally I was allowed to drive it -- I was only 18 or 19 years old then and wasn't a good driver to fully appreciate it. However, I really enjoyed driving my 70' U.S. modified 510 in Seattle until 1992. I improved my driving skill greatly thanks to that car. I miss that car, and whenever I hear about 510s, I feel forever young.
Turbo510

Posts: 471
Registered: 09/12/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 12, 2005 4:48 PM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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Not to irritate Audi owners (I'm on my forth, an A4), an explanation about the car pl510er just posted: The Datsun 510 was a "Germanic" style Japanese car, with the suspension patterned on the BMW 1600, and the engine more or less a Mercedes copy. There were factory-sponsored race teams to promote the brand, and the available performance parts. Aftermarket suspension and engine parts became popular, so lots were modified for street racing, hence the lack of stock examples today.
bobengine

Posts: 182
Registered: 05/19/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 12:51 AM   in response to: beattyr in response to: beattyr
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Rebuilt or rebuild is such a misnomer nowadays.
Anyway, it ofcourse depends on who did the rebuilding.
New bearings mean nothing if they are the wrong size. I have seen many so called "experienced" mechanics goof up on bearings. Or it could be the oil pump or the pick-up screen and tube, sucking air. If the pressure is verified nonexistant you have a problem. Yeah could be a broke relief spring or sticking valve. It could even be an internal plug that fell out or wasn't installed.
Good luck.
Chumley

Posts: 991
Registered: 12/09/03
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 1:04 PM   in response to: bobengine in response to: bobengine
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Have you checked for oil flow in the camshaft area by removing the oil fill cap with the engine at idle? On turbo I5 engines the engine should stall as soon as you remove the oil cap. If you have any oil flow there at all, and the lifters pump up, clearly there must be some oil pressure. If not, I'd consider removing the oil pan/oil pump and investigate further.

Don't continue to run the engine with no oil pressure or with the gauges flashing 0 psi oil pressure at you. Find out why.

Chumley
Turbo510

Posts: 471
Registered: 09/12/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 3:23 PM   in response to: bobengine in response to: bobengine
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bobengine made a point that I think is important, that of air leaking into the pickup tube. I had an engine that took 30 seconds or so to show any pressure on a mechanical gage. The mechanic who had built it for me blamed it on the filter, said that this type of engine did this normally, etc. I finally pulled the pan and found that his shop drone had used a grinder to clean off the oil pickup flange. After using a file to flatten it, the oil pressure was restored.
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 13, 2005 4:21 PM   in response to: beattyr in response to: beattyr
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Hey beattyr:

Haven't heard from you. You've given up and already got rid of your Audi? Without your input, we're getting nowhere.

By the way, from a technical point of view, I am very interested in my Audi (89 200 FWD) with the original engine at over 225K. The oil pressure is perfectly fine now, but when I let it sit, it's almost impossible to gain the proper oil pressure unless I use SAE 50 or 60 to initially build-up the pressure. Once it's primed - I'd say - everything becomes normal even with 20W-50. The only thing I did prior to that which might affect the oil pressure performance was installing new aftermarket hydraulic lifters.

I suspect the cause of the problem is a combination of a tired engine, tired oil pump, less-than-perfect lifters. But,the solution to this problem is always a use of SAE 50 or 60 initially to "prime" it. I didn't have to change anything else, because I didn't change anything except lifters, which will work fine after the pressure is regained. Before priming, though, the lifters scream a lot, and I also get a low pressure warning buzz.

So, the best protection to this problem is to continue driving it and not to let it sit too long. In any case, this has been a mystery of all time in my life.
gmatov

Posts: 83
Registered: 05/29/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 15, 2005 11:40 PM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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I'm confused, here.

How do you "prime" with a 50 weight oil, then change to a 20-40?

You either have pressure or you don't. You pump oil or you don't. You have a running engine, now, after starting so many times with NO pressure, that the engine should have seized, or you don't.

You ever consider the sending unit as the culprit?

Cheers,

George
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 18, 2005 12:17 AM   in response to: gmatov in response to: gmatov
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qmatov, you took it literally. What I meant was to first use SAE 50 or 60 to get the pressure going, and once the oil pressure is regained and stabilized, you switch to a lighter oil like 20W-50. It worked really well for a long time.

However, after 30K more miles since that fiasco in 2002, and a fresh oil-change two weeks ago with Castrol 20W-50, our 89 200 FWD has lost the oil pressure yesterday unexpectedly. I will drain the old oil and fill the crankcase with SAE 50, and see what happens this weekend. I will let you know how it goes.
gmatov

Posts: 83
Registered: 05/29/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 19, 2005 12:38 AM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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I have absolutely no idea as to your regimen.

A 20W50 IS approximately a 50 weight when cold. It would suck up, as you are saying your 50 does, to "prime" the pump.

And, if you have a leak in the suction side, ground face on the pump, as one post has, with a thicker oil, less chance of drawing oil up the pickup tube. Suck air instead.

Listen to Chumley, he has given the best advice, if you are getting flow of oil in the valve cover area, you ARE pumping oil to the top end.

IF you have oil to the top end, you have oil everywhere else.

If you have a guage attached and it reads 0, you have a plugged passage.

If you have not siezed the engine after so many tries at a start WITH NO pressure on either guage, mechanical or on board, you DO have oil pressure.

Like to hear your story after the recent loss of pressure in the 200.

Cheers,

George
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 20, 2005 12:08 AM   in response to: gmatov in response to: gmatov
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Well, I've been thinking about the loss of oil pressure since Sunday. I had a strange feeling about the oil filter, so I replaced it.

What do you know, the BOSCH brand filter was bulged up and deformed. It could have burst opened at anytime, I think. As soon as I put in a new one, the oil pressure came back, but I had to run the engine for a while to quiet noisy lifters, though. Happy ending!

By the way, the 20W-50 weight seems to get so thin when warmed up. I noticed this about two weeks ago when I had a brand new bottle of 20W-50 oil on top of the hot valve cover for about 5 minutes. Boy, it became like a water bottle. I wonder if a single weight 50 or 60 will get that way.

Anyway, with my 89 Audi 200 FWD, the heavier weight oil is always the answer to the low oil pressure problem that seems to occur after the engine was not run for an extended period of time.
gmatov

Posts: 83
Registered: 05/29/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 20, 2005 1:04 AM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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That's the nature of a multi viscosity oil. It is a 20 "Winter" weight, means it will crank as a 20 weight at 0 degrees F, will protect like a 50 at 212 or 250 F.

It is still a 20 weight oil, but the thickeners help it to keep from turning into useless sewing machine oil at 250.

It is also a 20 weight because it would totally gel at 5 F lower, and be unpumpable. Then you would need a 10 weight.

I have never used a Bosch filter, but I have had a Fram blow the entire canister, minus the mounting flange, off my Ford pickup. No change in engine sound, just happened to see the RED light shining, shut down, looked back, saw a 100 yard oil stream down the road behind me. Not an old filter, less than a thousand miles since last change.

Cheers,

George
gmatov

Posts: 83
Registered: 05/29/05
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 20, 2005 1:06 AM   in response to: gmatov in response to: gmatov
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Sorry, forgot.

Yes, a single weight will get that way, possibly even waterier. (If that's a word.)

Cheers,

George
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Oct 20, 2005 2:24 AM   in response to: gmatov in response to: gmatov
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I understand that. But, there must be a substantial difference between the 20W-50 and single weight 50 or 60 oils when building up the oil pressure, particularly with my tired engine. It initially screamed with noisy lifters and some strange sounds with 20W-50, but it was very happy with SAE 50 or 60.

Actually, a friend of mine suggested that I use SAE 60 when I had a problem. I wasn't sure about it, but he was absolutely right. I still can't understand why this is the case, though. As I said earlier, this has been the most mysterious thing I've ever encountered.
pl510er

Posts: 55
Registered: 05/27/04
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Mar 9, 2014 1:05 AM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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We'll, after 10-plus years since my last post, I am happy to report that my 89 200 is still running well. It has almost 300K miles now. Recently though, I had to replace a leaky steering rack, and the car sat idle for a while. Then, of course, the same low-oil pressure issues revisited with the existing 20W-50 Castrol when the engine was re-started. The low-pressure warning sound was also there.

So, I used 60 weight racing oil to get it going. But, this time, the pressure did not increase as the engine RPM went up. It stayed at about 2 bar at all times. So, I removed the oil pan and checked an oil pick-up screen. It was indeed a little dirty and clogged up. After cleaning it up though, the oil pressure came back and it was almost normal. It is still slightly low side, but no warning sound or noisy valves at all. So, what actually caused the very low oil pressure after letting it sit? I have no idea. I have other 200s, but none of them exhibits the same problem.....only this black one. I suspected a faulty sending unit, but I am very certain other things were causing this problem because when this happen, the engine also makes a strange hissing noises and noisy valves, coupled with a low-pressure warning display in the instrument cluster. So, the vert thick oil always helps restore a proper oil pressure for this car after sitting for a long time.
Francis at Bent...

Posts: 30
Registered: 11/13/13
Re: 89 200 tq low oil pressure at startup *STILL*
Posted: Mar 17, 2014 11:51 AM   in response to: pl510er in response to: pl510er
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This is very good to know, thank you for taking the time to update your thread.

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